1 00:00:05,749 --> 00:00:02,070 i'm just going to stop you candace okay 2 00:00:08,150 --> 00:00:05,759 candace uh i don't do readings anymore 3 00:00:09,750 --> 00:00:08,160 you did one last week mr andrew i know 4 00:00:11,430 --> 00:00:09,760 what he's an associate of my brothers 5 00:00:13,669 --> 00:00:11,440 it was a one-time thing i don't please i 6 00:00:24,630 --> 00:00:13,679 give you my word i won't tell anyone 7 00:00:29,910 --> 00:00:27,750 just a baby i just want to talk to her 8 00:00:31,509 --> 00:00:29,920 please i want to talk about it i can't 9 00:00:32,229 --> 00:00:31,519 help you i don't i don't do that i don't 10 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:32,239 do it 11 00:00:36,950 --> 00:00:35,680 please that's matt damon from the movie 12 00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:36,960 hereafter 13 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:39,680 showing the other side of mediumship and 14 00:00:43,590 --> 00:00:40,480 how hard 15 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:43,600 it can be on the mediums themselves it's 16 00:00:48,630 --> 00:00:45,600 a topic that today's guest 17 00:00:52,470 --> 00:00:48,640 the very very excellent trisha robertson 18 00:00:54,869 --> 00:00:52,480 has explored for well for decades now 19 00:00:55,670 --> 00:00:54,879 in her work with after death 20 00:00:58,790 --> 00:00:55,680 communication 21 00:01:03,189 --> 00:00:58,800 experiments writings and just 22 00:01:06,070 --> 00:01:03,199 generally as a explorer of the topic 23 00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:06,080 here's a clip from my interview so this 24 00:01:10,789 --> 00:01:08,080 will not offend your religious beliefs 25 00:01:12,950 --> 00:01:10,799 yeah and i thought wow why would you why 26 00:01:15,109 --> 00:01:12,960 would you say that why do we know that 27 00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:15,119 why do we care why would we even care i 28 00:01:18,070 --> 00:01:16,880 mean i understand you're trying to meet 29 00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:18,080 people where they are 30 00:01:21,190 --> 00:01:20,640 people are people are having questions 31 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:21,200 about 32 00:01:24,950 --> 00:01:23,200 after death communication they're in a 33 00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:24,960 position i understand that 34 00:01:29,910 --> 00:01:27,680 but on a level why would we possibly 35 00:01:33,030 --> 00:01:29,920 care if we're going to the next level of 36 00:01:34,469 --> 00:01:33,040 understanding what this stuff really is 37 00:01:37,109 --> 00:01:34,479 why would we care about someone's 38 00:01:39,190 --> 00:01:37,119 religious beliefs 39 00:01:40,550 --> 00:01:39,200 well it's got nothing to do with 40 00:01:43,510 --> 00:01:40,560 religion whatsoever 41 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:43,520 but if you take the hypothesis that a 42 00:01:47,429 --> 00:01:45,280 lot of people believe in god 43 00:01:49,030 --> 00:01:47,439 cosmic consciousness and energy that 44 00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:49,040 they're going to go to they need to try 45 00:01:52,630 --> 00:01:50,320 and understand it 46 00:01:54,310 --> 00:01:52,640 and i don't know what i do not know what 47 00:01:56,310 --> 00:01:54,320 the next level of testing would be 48 00:01:57,590 --> 00:01:56,320 no i don't want to offend anyone's 49 00:01:59,429 --> 00:01:57,600 religious belief 50 00:02:01,190 --> 00:01:59,439 i mean i would never take it away from 51 00:02:02,069 --> 00:02:01,200 them because some people need that to 52 00:02:04,950 --> 00:02:02,079 hang on to 53 00:02:06,630 --> 00:02:04,960 but whatever we show with our survival 54 00:02:08,869 --> 00:02:06,640 of consciousness and the evidence 55 00:02:10,150 --> 00:02:08,879 it should fit anybody's religious 56 00:02:11,990 --> 00:02:10,160 beliefs 57 00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:12,000 welcome to skeptico where we explore 58 00:02:16,949 --> 00:02:14,480 controversial science and spirituality 59 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:16,959 with leading researchers thinkers and 60 00:02:20,790 --> 00:02:18,480 their critics 61 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:20,800 you know there's one topic that has 62 00:02:22,949 --> 00:02:21,520 always 63 00:02:25,190 --> 00:02:22,959 intrigued me and you know if you've 64 00:02:27,670 --> 00:02:25,200 listened to this show and it's 65 00:02:28,869 --> 00:02:27,680 frontier science exploring the 66 00:02:31,830 --> 00:02:28,879 intersection 67 00:02:33,990 --> 00:02:31,840 between science and spirituality because 68 00:02:35,030 --> 00:02:34,000 it always seems like there's a lot of 69 00:02:38,070 --> 00:02:35,040 potential that's 70 00:02:41,750 --> 00:02:38,080 untapped there in that you know what 71 00:02:45,309 --> 00:02:41,760 is less scientific about studying 72 00:02:47,670 --> 00:02:45,319 and measuring the hypothesized 73 00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:47,680 disincarnated spirit that may 74 00:02:53,750 --> 00:02:50,400 communicate with you through a medium 75 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:53,760 why is that somehow less scientific than 76 00:03:00,149 --> 00:02:57,120 calculating the radius of a proton 77 00:03:02,949 --> 00:03:00,159 well i think this is exactly the kind of 78 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:02,959 approach that today's guest tricia 79 00:03:06,710 --> 00:03:04,560 robertson has taken 80 00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:06,720 through her collaboration with professor 81 00:03:10,949 --> 00:03:07,760 archie roy 82 00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:10,959 of the university of glasgow and since 83 00:03:14,149 --> 00:03:11,840 his passing 84 00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:14,159 she has continued that kind of research 85 00:03:18,550 --> 00:03:15,280 she's really 86 00:03:19,430 --> 00:03:18,560 someone who's dived into after death 87 00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:19,440 communication 88 00:03:23,030 --> 00:03:21,280 she's written a couple of very 89 00:03:26,470 --> 00:03:23,040 interesting terrific books if you're 90 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:26,480 at all in doubt about this 91 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:29,920 phenomenon then things you can 92 00:03:34,229 --> 00:03:32,640 do when you're dead true accounts of 93 00:03:36,949 --> 00:03:34,239 after death communication 94 00:03:37,589 --> 00:03:36,959 and her follow-up book more things you 95 00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:37,599 can do 96 00:03:41,830 --> 00:03:41,120 when you're dead will certainly convince 97 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:41,840 you 98 00:03:44,949 --> 00:03:44,080 so i thought this was a really cool 99 00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:44,959 opportunity 100 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:47,280 to talk with tricia especially she was 101 00:03:51,830 --> 00:03:48,400 suggested to me 102 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:51,840 by my friend mark ireland who wrote 103 00:03:57,030 --> 00:03:55,040 the book soul shift we had mark on the 104 00:03:58,470 --> 00:03:57,040 show a long time ago and i've stayed in 105 00:04:01,030 --> 00:03:58,480 contact with mark 106 00:04:02,390 --> 00:04:01,040 and trisha actually wrote the forward to 107 00:04:05,509 --> 00:04:02,400 that book 108 00:04:07,270 --> 00:04:05,519 as well so trisha thanks so much for 109 00:04:10,550 --> 00:04:07,280 joining me on skeptico i'm glad you're 110 00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:10,560 welcome you're welcome so tell 111 00:04:14,869 --> 00:04:13,760 tell folks some more about your 112 00:04:17,430 --> 00:04:14,879 background in 113 00:04:18,150 --> 00:04:17,440 you know so you're not a medium right i 114 00:04:20,949 --> 00:04:18,160 mean no not 115 00:04:21,670 --> 00:04:20,959 all no no so tell folks about your 116 00:04:23,510 --> 00:04:21,680 background 117 00:04:26,390 --> 00:04:23,520 your interest in that and then let's 118 00:04:28,469 --> 00:04:26,400 have this chat about 119 00:04:29,749 --> 00:04:28,479 the science of as you guys in the uk 120 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:29,759 call it um 121 00:04:33,189 --> 00:04:31,520 psychical research you know we don't 122 00:04:35,030 --> 00:04:33,199 that's it that's it you got it 123 00:04:36,550 --> 00:04:35,040 that throws people off over here in the 124 00:04:38,469 --> 00:04:36,560 city i know what's psychic 125 00:04:41,110 --> 00:04:38,479 what does that mean you know ghost 126 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:41,120 hunting no not really 127 00:04:44,870 --> 00:04:43,120 some people call it parapsychology but 128 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:44,880 part of psychology is normally done in 129 00:04:49,270 --> 00:04:46,240 the university 130 00:04:49,670 --> 00:04:49,280 psychical research psychical research 131 00:04:54,710 --> 00:04:49,680 was 132 00:04:57,909 --> 00:04:54,720 started really in 1992 133 00:04:59,909 --> 00:04:57,919 or 1882 when the society for psychical 134 00:05:02,390 --> 00:04:59,919 research in london was formed 135 00:05:03,590 --> 00:05:02,400 whereby eminent people of the time 136 00:05:05,749 --> 00:05:03,600 professors 137 00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:05,759 all sorts of learned people were 138 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:08,240 examining the claims of spiritualism 139 00:05:11,430 --> 00:05:09,840 that there was a life after death and 140 00:05:12,310 --> 00:05:11,440 you could communicate with people who 141 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:12,320 had passed 142 00:05:17,189 --> 00:05:15,520 that's how it started now they took well 143 00:05:18,950 --> 00:05:17,199 all the details are actually in the 144 00:05:20,710 --> 00:05:18,960 first book of how that started 145 00:05:22,150 --> 00:05:20,720 i think most people are familiar with 146 00:05:25,110 --> 00:05:22,160 that history it's a very 147 00:05:26,469 --> 00:05:25,120 intriguing history particularly that you 148 00:05:27,590 --> 00:05:26,479 know all the leading scientists at the 149 00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:27,600 time 150 00:05:31,590 --> 00:05:30,160 were on board in terms of investigating 151 00:05:33,189 --> 00:05:31,600 this and some of them 152 00:05:35,029 --> 00:05:33,199 you know you can even kind of throw 153 00:05:36,710 --> 00:05:35,039 stones at some of them but 154 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:36,720 several of them were of the highest 155 00:05:41,510 --> 00:05:38,960 caliber and certainly we're capable 156 00:05:42,390 --> 00:05:41,520 you know scientifically of doing that so 157 00:05:44,390 --> 00:05:42,400 what about you 158 00:05:46,310 --> 00:05:44,400 what that's how it started that's why 159 00:05:49,189 --> 00:05:46,320 it's called psychical research 160 00:05:51,189 --> 00:05:49,199 and as opposed to parapsychology now 161 00:05:53,110 --> 00:05:51,199 they did not start this to knock it 162 00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:53,120 they started it to see is there any 163 00:05:56,469 --> 00:05:54,720 truth what is the evidence 164 00:05:59,430 --> 00:05:56,479 that's what i'm all about what is the 165 00:06:01,110 --> 00:05:59,440 evidence for any particular phenomenon 166 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:01,120 and my own particular interest at the 167 00:06:07,430 --> 00:06:04,000 moment is survival of consciousness 168 00:06:10,950 --> 00:06:07,440 after physical death i i taught 169 00:06:12,390 --> 00:06:10,960 maths and physics uh just as a as an 170 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:12,400 ordinary school teacher in what you 171 00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:13,120 would call 172 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:15,840 a high school and i did that for years 173 00:06:19,990 --> 00:06:17,360 and i had no interest in 174 00:06:21,670 --> 00:06:20,000 religion i had really no particular 175 00:06:23,909 --> 00:06:21,680 interest in life after death 176 00:06:25,270 --> 00:06:23,919 i was too busy getting on with my life 177 00:06:29,029 --> 00:06:25,280 enjoying myself 178 00:06:31,110 --> 00:06:29,039 and then about 1983 i for some reason 179 00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:31,120 unknown took an intellectual interest in 180 00:06:34,469 --> 00:06:31,840 this 181 00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:34,479 so i took myself to the nearest big 182 00:06:37,430 --> 00:06:36,080 spiritualist church to listen to what 183 00:06:38,469 --> 00:06:37,440 was going on 184 00:06:39,749 --> 00:06:38,479 there if you will because that's 185 00:06:41,430 --> 00:06:39,759 something else that's going to be this 186 00:06:44,790 --> 00:06:41,440 kind of culture difference 187 00:06:46,150 --> 00:06:44,800 spiritualist churches we do have them 188 00:06:47,670 --> 00:06:46,160 here in the states and i've actually 189 00:06:48,550 --> 00:06:47,680 visited when there's one that's pretty 190 00:06:51,270 --> 00:06:48,560 prominent that's 191 00:06:54,230 --> 00:06:51,280 relatively close to my house but i get 192 00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:54,240 the feeling i get the sense that they're 193 00:06:57,430 --> 00:06:55,520 they're different over here i mean 194 00:07:01,110 --> 00:06:57,440 they're really an oddball 195 00:07:03,430 --> 00:07:01,120 odd duck here more so than they are 196 00:07:05,749 --> 00:07:03,440 what are people what are people going to 197 00:07:07,830 --> 00:07:05,759 encounter and what is the whole idea 198 00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:07,840 of a spiritualist church well the spirit 199 00:07:11,430 --> 00:07:09,039 they've said it is 200 00:07:12,790 --> 00:07:11,440 it is a recognized religion now in the 201 00:07:14,550 --> 00:07:12,800 united kingdom 202 00:07:17,029 --> 00:07:14,560 and they have their principles like the 203 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:17,039 fatherhood of god the brotherhood of man 204 00:07:23,990 --> 00:07:20,560 and continuation of consciousness after 205 00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:24,000 physical death i am not a spiritualist 206 00:07:29,189 --> 00:07:27,680 i merely was interested in the idea 207 00:07:31,510 --> 00:07:29,199 and i don't know why because i was 208 00:07:33,110 --> 00:07:31,520 married at the time we had two good jobs 209 00:07:35,909 --> 00:07:33,120 two cars two children 210 00:07:36,550 --> 00:07:35,919 the usual the usual thing and i was very 211 00:07:38,230 --> 00:07:36,560 happy 212 00:07:40,070 --> 00:07:38,240 but for some reason my friend and i 213 00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:40,080 decided to look into this 214 00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:42,400 just just a friend and when i got there 215 00:07:46,710 --> 00:07:44,400 i was intrigued intellectually 216 00:07:48,070 --> 00:07:46,720 about what was going on and i used to 217 00:07:50,710 --> 00:07:48,080 listen to people getting 218 00:07:52,710 --> 00:07:50,720 messages as a column from the regions 219 00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:52,720 and then eventually i managed to accost 220 00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:54,240 people in the foyer 221 00:07:58,469 --> 00:07:56,560 and say can you tell me what that was 222 00:08:00,550 --> 00:07:58,479 about was it meaningful to you 223 00:08:01,670 --> 00:08:00,560 and so on and so forth and as time went 224 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:01,680 on i 225 00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:03,440 was just gathering data not 226 00:08:08,309 --> 00:08:06,000 scientifically about what was going on 227 00:08:10,869 --> 00:08:08,319 and that intrigued me even further and 228 00:08:14,309 --> 00:08:10,879 then professor archieroy and i 229 00:08:16,869 --> 00:08:14,319 met in 1987 230 00:08:17,990 --> 00:08:16,879 and we we were he was interested in 231 00:08:19,830 --> 00:08:18,000 these things too 232 00:08:21,589 --> 00:08:19,840 and we both began to go out to what you 233 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:21,599 call spontaneous cases 234 00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:24,240 where people are reporting things and 235 00:08:27,830 --> 00:08:26,560 examining other aspects of paranormal 236 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:27,840 phenomena 237 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:30,160 and then archie and i we used to give 238 00:08:32,709 --> 00:08:32,000 lectures at glasgow university at night 239 00:08:35,909 --> 00:08:32,719 time 240 00:08:38,389 --> 00:08:35,919 uh on introduction to psychical research 241 00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:38,399 and once you start these things things 242 00:08:42,630 --> 00:08:40,240 come into your wake 243 00:08:43,430 --> 00:08:42,640 and that that's really how it all 244 00:08:45,990 --> 00:08:43,440 started 245 00:08:47,910 --> 00:08:46,000 and then one thing led to another we had 246 00:08:50,070 --> 00:08:47,920 our own particular cases 247 00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:50,080 and arch and i formed this group called 248 00:08:54,070 --> 00:08:52,640 prism psychical research involving 249 00:08:56,310 --> 00:08:54,080 selected mediums 250 00:08:58,070 --> 00:08:56,320 we used to meet in london with other 251 00:09:00,470 --> 00:08:58,080 professors and scientists 252 00:09:01,910 --> 00:09:00,480 and people from the spiritual community 253 00:09:05,350 --> 00:09:01,920 and we tried to devise 254 00:09:07,590 --> 00:09:05,360 experiments to test various hypotheses 255 00:09:09,670 --> 00:09:07,600 and that's what science does science 256 00:09:11,910 --> 00:09:09,680 says let's look at this 257 00:09:13,670 --> 00:09:11,920 how can we test it is there any truth in 258 00:09:15,590 --> 00:09:13,680 what that claim is that's what science 259 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:15,600 is 260 00:09:21,350 --> 00:09:18,880 well maybe i mean you know one of the 261 00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:21,360 the things that i've kind of been led to 262 00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:22,000 in the show 263 00:09:25,990 --> 00:09:23,360 and i've been doing this show for a long 264 00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:26,000 time and we've really looked into after 265 00:09:29,829 --> 00:09:27,920 death communication scientifically 266 00:09:32,070 --> 00:09:29,839 you're familiar with the work of dr 267 00:09:33,829 --> 00:09:32,080 julie baishol 268 00:09:36,310 --> 00:09:33,839 julie i'm working with julie at the 269 00:09:38,550 --> 00:09:36,320 moment julie asked me to work with her 270 00:09:40,310 --> 00:09:38,560 anyway the work that archie and i did 271 00:09:41,509 --> 00:09:40,320 this we've got three published papers 272 00:09:43,910 --> 00:09:41,519 and on the in 273 00:09:46,310 --> 00:09:43,920 uh peer-reviewed journals and these 274 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:46,320 these three papers are well accepted 275 00:09:50,310 --> 00:09:47,360 throughout the world 276 00:09:51,110 --> 00:09:50,320 julie by show it knows my work and she's 277 00:09:53,509 --> 00:09:51,120 asked me 278 00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:53,519 to to help her at the moment along with 279 00:09:56,310 --> 00:09:54,240 other people 280 00:09:57,990 --> 00:09:56,320 with a project that they're doing not 281 00:09:59,670 --> 00:09:58,000 similar similar but different 282 00:10:01,269 --> 00:09:59,680 if you know i mean using more para 283 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:01,279 psychological jargon 284 00:10:06,069 --> 00:10:04,480 in a university type setting yes i'm 285 00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:06,079 very well aware of julia 286 00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:08,240 and as i say we had these three papers 287 00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:10,240 so arch and i devised this experiment 288 00:10:14,230 --> 00:10:12,720 arch and i really did it ourselves and 289 00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:14,240 it took us five years 290 00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:16,480 study and we've got sixteen hundred 291 00:10:21,269 --> 00:10:18,560 points in a graph at the end it's not 292 00:10:22,470 --> 00:10:21,279 a thing of small numbers it took us five 293 00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:22,480 years now 294 00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:24,160 this type of thing to me is an 295 00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:26,240 observational science you have to 296 00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:26,959 observe 297 00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:29,040 what is happening what's this it's an 298 00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:30,560 experiential science 299 00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:32,720 what is happening to the people so we 300 00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,880 set out to test a hypothesis that all 301 00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:36,160 medium statements 302 00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:39,120 are so general that can apply to anyone 303 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:41,200 and after five years work 304 00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:43,920 long hard work setting out real life 305 00:10:48,069 --> 00:10:44,959 settings 306 00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:48,079 setting out the information is all there 307 00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:49,200 in the published paper 308 00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:51,839 it's very boring we would get someone 309 00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:54,399 else to fill a room with 40 people 310 00:10:57,590 --> 00:10:56,160 we didn't know who these 40 people would 311 00:10:59,829 --> 00:10:57,600 be art 312 00:11:01,350 --> 00:10:59,839 i would bring a medium of some kind 313 00:11:02,230 --> 00:11:01,360 actually didn't know who the region was 314 00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:02,240 going to be 315 00:11:05,829 --> 00:11:04,560 and then we did blind readings that were 316 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:05,839 all blind readings 317 00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:07,760 where i would be in one room with the 318 00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:11,040 medium they would never see the audience 319 00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:13,600 archie would never see the medium and we 320 00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:14,160 did all 321 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:18,160 these experimental things and obviously 322 00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:20,560 the whole thing was recorded so we had 323 00:11:24,630 --> 00:11:22,240 40 people in the room 324 00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:24,640 we got the medium to make six different 325 00:11:28,550 --> 00:11:27,200 statements to intended recipients 326 00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:28,560 now how did we know the intended 327 00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:30,800 recipients archie would put out seat 328 00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:31,680 numbers 329 00:11:36,310 --> 00:11:34,240 on in the venue once we got there he 330 00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:36,320 would be the only person that would know 331 00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:38,880 where this what seat numbers were i 332 00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,519 didn't know 333 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:41,519 what the seat numbers were i hadn't a 334 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:43,120 clue what was going on 335 00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:44,640 and then i would just get a knock at the 336 00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:46,640 door to say 337 00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:48,880 give the first reading so the medium 338 00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:50,800 would then i would say can you tune in 339 00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,160 and see if you can find the first 340 00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:54,160 recipient that's been chosen by seat 341 00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:54,959 number 342 00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:57,839 and this went on again and again so lots 343 00:12:02,230 --> 00:11:59,680 and lots and lots of information 344 00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:02,240 this went on for five years and to our 345 00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:03,120 surprise 346 00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:05,760 as much as anyone it worked now you have 347 00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:07,600 to remember that i'm only using good 348 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:09,839 mediums that i know good 349 00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:11,760 the trouble with mediumship is there's 350 00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:14,240 so many regions who are not good mediums 351 00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:16,320 there are some flaky mediums there are 352 00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:18,240 some people who are deluded 353 00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:21,440 but using the best the regions that i 354 00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:22,720 that i would trust 355 00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:24,399 and using a scientific method of 356 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:26,880 reduction of data et cetera et cetera 357 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:29,760 we nullified that hypothesis to add 358 00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:30,240 against 359 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:32,720 chance to a million to one now if we'd 360 00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:35,040 only used the very very best mediums 361 00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:36,399 it would have been a lot more than that 362 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:39,200 but we did use a mixture of mediums 363 00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:41,200 to see what result we're going to get so 364 00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:42,800 as far as that goes 365 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:45,760 we were we were convinced that using 366 00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:46,720 good mediums 367 00:12:50,949 --> 00:12:49,680 they do give relevant information to the 368 00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:50,959 relevant sitter 369 00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:53,200 that's the boring stuff the more 370 00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:54,480 interesting thing is 371 00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:56,240 what are they telling the people what 372 00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:58,399 are the nature of the statements 373 00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:00,720 they have to be specific statements that 374 00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:02,000 are either right 375 00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:05,120 or wrong correct or not correct there's 376 00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:06,240 nothing in the middle 377 00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:08,240 and if if the people weren't sure well 378 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:09,760 it's kind of right i'd 379 00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:12,240 count that as no not correct so we're 380 00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:14,480 being very very hard here on the mediums 381 00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:16,639 and with that scientific thing now 382 00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:18,160 nobody in the world 383 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:21,040 so far and that was the last paper was 384 00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:23,040 published in 2004. 385 00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:26,720 no one has seriously uh criticized our 386 00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,279 work 387 00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:29,519 no one and professor chris rowell who's 388 00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:31,279 head of parapsychology 389 00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:33,920 in northampton university he actually 390 00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:34,959 cites psyche 391 00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,440 cites our work everywhere he goes and so 392 00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:39,120 does gary schwartz believe it or not and 393 00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:39,760 so does 394 00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:42,240 so do a whole lot of other people a 395 00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:44,000 better professor bernie carr 396 00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:46,000 he's an astronomer all of these people 397 00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:47,600 accept her work as genuine 398 00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:49,440 because they know the way that the work 399 00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:50,880 was done so 400 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:52,959 that was interesting in itself but at 401 00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:54,880 the moment i'm really more interested 402 00:13:59,269 --> 00:13:57,680 in survival of consciousness what do the 403 00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:59,279 other cases shows 404 00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:01,440 and what might that survival of 405 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,360 consciousness be like 406 00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,760 you know just to recap a little bit 407 00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:07,199 because there's a good video 408 00:14:11,110 --> 00:14:08,639 out there that people can watch on 409 00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,120 youtube it does a nice job of 410 00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:12,880 demonstrating how this experiment was 411 00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:15,279 done and it's clever it's simple 412 00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:17,360 as a lot of these experiments can be you 413 00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:20,160 know it's really not 414 00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:22,480 just earth-shattering science but it's 415 00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,199 solid 416 00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:25,600 so the idea is you you take a medium and 417 00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:26,800 again you stated it 418 00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:30,560 quite perfectly and that there is this 419 00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:33,040 one of the skeptical claims is hey these 420 00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:34,399 and you've all heard it you know they're 421 00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:36,000 they're just saying general statements 422 00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,560 that it could 423 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:38,720 apply to anyone and that's what you 424 00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:40,160 sought to test 425 00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:42,880 so easy way to test that is just to say 426 00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:45,920 well let's let the medium do their thing 427 00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,519 and then blinded and as you said there's 428 00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:51,360 a couple of different blindings 429 00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:53,760 the medium does a reading and then that 430 00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:55,519 reading is distributed to 431 00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:57,199 40 people and they have to say does it 432 00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:58,560 fit or does it not fit 433 00:15:02,069 --> 00:15:00,720 and that seems like a pretty fair test 434 00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:02,079 and as you said 435 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:04,320 analyze that statistically it comes out 436 00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:07,040 with a pretty strong result so 437 00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,959 in case you're wondering how we how we 438 00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:10,399 did the statistics 439 00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:12,079 once the mediums had made all the 440 00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:13,519 statements and i 441 00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:16,240 i had made i had sheets for every one of 442 00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:17,279 the statements 443 00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:18,560 there would be a break in the 444 00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:21,360 proceedings the medium was finished now 445 00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:23,680 and actually i would give the people a 446 00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:25,199 talk of some kind 447 00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:27,360 i would go away somewhere and i would 448 00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:28,320 photocopy 449 00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:31,920 41 copies of each statement 450 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:35,199 so you've got 40 41 copies of six 451 00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:36,320 statements 452 00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:38,800 to distribute to the populace in that 453 00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:39,680 audience 454 00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:41,920 there and when the people came in the 455 00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:44,079 seat numbers were randomized 456 00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:47,199 archie did randomization say you came in 457 00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:50,079 with your partner your wife anybody you 458 00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:51,680 weren't particularly allowed to sit 459 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:52,240 together 460 00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:54,880 actually had another randomized pack 461 00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,160 numbers from 1 to 462 00:15:59,670 --> 00:15:58,320 50 or something like that and as they 463 00:16:01,030 --> 00:15:59,680 came in what they were asked to come 464 00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,040 forward randomly 465 00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:03,440 and they would have to take the pipe was 466 00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:05,519 shuffled three times by somebody else 467 00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:07,120 and they would have to take the number 468 00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,800 and i would have to sit on 469 00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,480 the seat they were given if you were 470 00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:13,040 given 24 you had to keep your butt and 471 00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:13,440 say 472 00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:16,639 24 for all of the proceedings and 473 00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,320 you will know as well as i do it's quite 474 00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:20,160 difficult sometime to get people to do 475 00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:21,360 what they're supposed to do 476 00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,360 or can i not sit with my friend no you 477 00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,440 can't you're in seat 24 478 00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:27,600 your friends in whatever other seat they 479 00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:29,519 get so we're very strict with the 480 00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:30,079 audience 481 00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,600 we need to keep them not doing what they 482 00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:33,440 were doing so after the break when 483 00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:35,519 archie had given a small talk 484 00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:37,920 then i would have the i would have the 485 00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:38,959 the six 486 00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:42,079 sets of papers everybody got this the 487 00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,120 six sets of 488 00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:45,120 statements and then they were given time 489 00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:46,480 to go through each one 490 00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:49,680 and take if that applied to them 491 00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:51,680 your father's name was bernard it's 492 00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:53,680 either right or it's wrong 493 00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:56,320 and each statement each medium was told 494 00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,880 to make 495 00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:59,279 specific statements because they know me 496 00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:01,680 and they're afraid of me 497 00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:04,160 and that that's how we gather actually 498 00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:06,240 gather the data 499 00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:08,000 so there was no dubai about it 500 00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:09,520 whatsoever right 501 00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:12,240 right sounds sounds solid sounds like 502 00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:13,280 good science 503 00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,880 you know yeah so trisha one of the 504 00:17:18,309 --> 00:17:16,559 things that i guess i'm kind of 505 00:17:20,309 --> 00:17:18,319 interested in on the show and i've 506 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:20,319 been pursuing for the last few years is 507 00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,160 this idea of 508 00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:24,880 you know if you pound on the science 509 00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:25,679 angle 510 00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:28,480 like you have yeah and i think you get 511 00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:29,919 to what i call level one 512 00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:32,000 you know level one is your point follow 513 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,240 the data so you follow the data and you 514 00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:36,080 say oh yeah 515 00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:38,080 this stands up this stands up to the 516 00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:39,760 usual 517 00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,080 tests that we would have in science and 518 00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:44,480 it's peer-reviewed that passes that test 519 00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:47,039 it's statistically significant it passes 520 00:17:50,230 --> 00:17:48,640 that test 521 00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:50,240 and that gets us to the level two 522 00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:52,400 question in my mind which is 523 00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:54,799 why isn't this more accepted and i think 524 00:17:57,909 --> 00:17:56,880 we can go round and round on that and i 525 00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:57,919 have on this show 526 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:00,480 interviewed so many skeptics leading 527 00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:01,760 skeptics 528 00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:05,120 in the uk in the us who 529 00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:06,960 front having you know legitimate 530 00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:08,640 concerns and they'll tell you all their 531 00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:12,240 concerns in a very scientific way 532 00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:14,880 but i've come to kind of question 533 00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:15,840 whether or not 534 00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:19,039 those concerns are as they seem 535 00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:20,960 like legitimate concerns about the 536 00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:24,320 science or whether they point to 537 00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:27,679 more fundamental structural problems 538 00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:29,919 in science in general in terms of 539 00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,000 science is very 540 00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:34,240 married as we know to a materialistic 541 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:35,280 paradigm 542 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:37,840 and look behind why we're married to 543 00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:39,520 that materialistic paradigm 544 00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:42,640 you know what that means in terms of 545 00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:45,280 the general population feeling isolated 546 00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:47,440 feeling alone feeling afraid and whether 547 00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:49,919 or not that might be a better way to 548 00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,120 divide and rule people than have people 549 00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:55,520 running out and considering their 550 00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:56,160 infinite 551 00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:58,240 possibilities that their soul might 552 00:19:02,310 --> 00:18:59,760 provide 553 00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:02,320 it's it's never going to change as i say 554 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,240 it's 1882 555 00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:06,720 the society was formed in london and 556 00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:07,360 there is 557 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:10,720 so much excellent information evidence 558 00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:11,280 there 559 00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:14,880 but conventional signs not all of them 560 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:17,520 and other people they will not accept it 561 00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,000 because 562 00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:20,799 they the brain can't get into the head 563 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,200 this could be a possibility 564 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:25,200 unless you've actually had an experience 565 00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:27,120 or read in fact 566 00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:30,400 books like mine i keep it simple i keep 567 00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,320 it down to what's actually happening 568 00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,640 don't fill it with jargon i present the 569 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:36,480 evidence and you can make up your own 570 00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,520 mind it's like 571 00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:39,679 with two levels of proof in this our 572 00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,600 world we've got science 573 00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:43,360 where two apples and two apples will 574 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:44,799 always make four apples 575 00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:46,720 and then you have proof as in a court of 576 00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:48,320 law beyond 577 00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:51,679 reasonable doubt and that is the type of 578 00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:53,039 science that we do 579 00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,960 with psychical research i think that 580 00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:56,480 misses the point because 581 00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:58,480 science the fundamental question in 582 00:20:01,110 --> 00:20:00,240 science that science is still grappling 583 00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:01,120 with is 584 00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:03,600 does consciousness exist right so i can 585 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,840 play your clips like i do on the show of 586 00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:07,600 you know neil degrasse tyson one of the 587 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:08,240 most 588 00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:11,760 prominent scientists public scientists 589 00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:12,880 in the united states saying that 590 00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:14,559 consciousness is an illusion 591 00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:17,200 consciousness as an epiphenomenon on the 592 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:17,760 brain 593 00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:20,480 is the the standard working hypothesis 594 00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:21,760 that we have right now 595 00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:24,080 absolutely but it's absurd it doesn't 596 00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:25,720 make any sense it doesn't make any sense 597 00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:26,960 experimentally 598 00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,960 we've proven that for a hundred years 599 00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:31,200 not just with psychical research 600 00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,480 but quantum physics stands in the way of 601 00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:36,880 that in terms of the observer effect so 602 00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:39,280 i guess what i'm saying is i don't i i 603 00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:40,799 think it's missing the point to think 604 00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,360 that 605 00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:43,280 oh you know i've proven it this way and 606 00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:44,960 now i've proven it this way and 607 00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:47,600 gosh darn it those skeptics they're just 608 00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,000 not 609 00:20:51,909 --> 00:20:50,320 you know they don't have the mind for it 610 00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:51,919 taking one step back saying no they're 611 00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:53,039 doing it perfectly 612 00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:56,799 particular purpose and even if that 613 00:21:01,990 --> 00:20:58,640 means that that individual 614 00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:02,000 who is causing 615 00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:03,919 you know if it's richard wiseman or 616 00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,520 whoever it is you know 617 00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:07,840 is is standing in the way of it whether 618 00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:08,880 it means that 619 00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:11,039 they are aware of the role they're 620 00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:12,240 playing or not 621 00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:13,679 i think we have to take a step back and 622 00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:16,080 say maybe there's something 623 00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:18,720 behind the agenda that they're pushing 624 00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:20,960 and then i think that leads us to a more 625 00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:25,120 interesting discussion about where we go 626 00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:28,640 with where we really want the frontier 627 00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:30,400 science to go leaving 628 00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:34,159 behind science as we know it to say we 629 00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:36,240 don't need their approval to start 630 00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:38,240 asking some 631 00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:39,919 i don't know next level questions like 632 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,640 i'll give you an example that's a long 633 00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,640 rant but i'll bring it home with with 634 00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:46,400 this you know in one of the interviews i 635 00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:47,360 heard you said 636 00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:50,559 you know now this will not bother your 637 00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:51,600 religious 638 00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:53,360 beliefs so this will not offend your 639 00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:55,280 religious beliefs yeah and i thought 640 00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:57,840 wow why would you why would you say that 641 00:22:01,270 --> 00:21:59,120 why do we know that 642 00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:01,280 why do we care why would we even care i 643 00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:03,039 mean i understand you're trying to meet 644 00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:04,240 people where they are 645 00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:06,799 people are people are having questions 646 00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,360 about 647 00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:09,360 after death communication they're in a 648 00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:11,120 position i understand that 649 00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:13,840 but on a level why would we possibly 650 00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:15,760 care if we're going to the next level of 651 00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:18,960 of understanding what this stuff really 652 00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:19,200 is 653 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,640 why would we care about someone's 654 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,280 religious beliefs 655 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:25,360 well it's got nothing to do with 656 00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:26,720 religion whatsoever 657 00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:29,679 but if you take the hypothesis that a 658 00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:31,280 lot of people believe in god 659 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:33,600 a cosmic consciousness and energy that 660 00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:35,200 they're going to go to they need to try 661 00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:36,480 and understand it 662 00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,799 and i don't know what i do not know what 663 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:40,640 the next level of testing would be i 664 00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:41,760 just don't know 665 00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:44,159 i mean you're talking a neuroscientist 666 00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:46,159 don't understand it either dr peter 667 00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:47,600 fenix a friend of mine 668 00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:49,600 and they will admit they do not know 669 00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:51,039 what consciousness is 670 00:22:55,029 --> 00:22:52,799 that you can't you they don't even know 671 00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:55,039 where it lies does it lie in every cell 672 00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:56,080 of your body 673 00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:58,000 does it lie in your brain which i don't 674 00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,280 think it does because 675 00:23:02,950 --> 00:23:01,919 the evidence of the actual cases don't 676 00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:02,960 show that at all 677 00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:05,440 because consciousness is very alive when 678 00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,360 there's no physical body 679 00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:09,440 so i don't know what the next level of 680 00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:11,120 experimentation would be 681 00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:13,679 i just get don't maybe the purpose of 682 00:23:17,909 --> 00:23:14,559 your reading 683 00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:17,919 is to kind of shake you out of some of 684 00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:19,280 your religious beliefs 685 00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:21,200 so i'll just start with that you know to 686 00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:22,880 poke at you a little bit trisha 687 00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:24,559 why do we want to say that this won't 688 00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:26,720 offend your religious beliefs 689 00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:29,120 can we be so sure of that and should we 690 00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:31,039 care about that 691 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:34,240 well i i just do say that do the 692 00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:36,080 pragmatic thing i just show you what 693 00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:36,720 happens 694 00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:39,200 and what you make of that no i i don't 695 00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:41,840 want to offend anyone's religious belief 696 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:43,600 i mean i would never take it away from 697 00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:45,360 them because some people need that to 698 00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:46,240 hang on to 699 00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:49,200 but whatever we show with our survivor 700 00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:50,799 consciousness and the evidence 701 00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:53,039 it should fit anybody's religious 702 00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,200 beliefs absolutely anyone 703 00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:57,440 unless you why why would it why do we 704 00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:58,799 think why would we 705 00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:01,679 care if it fits anyone's religious 706 00:24:04,549 --> 00:24:03,200 beliefs and clearly it's not 707 00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,559 i mean i've spoken to a lot of 708 00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:06,320 christians on this show 709 00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,159 who will tell you directly that this 710 00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:10,240 does not fit their religious beliefs 711 00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,480 and that it's satanic nonsense 712 00:24:17,669 --> 00:24:16,080 it's not rubbish to them it's not 713 00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,679 nonsense to them it's no 714 00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:19,200 no but you see this is where you come 715 00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:21,279 into a fundamentalism in 716 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:24,320 any form of fundamentalism it's like the 717 00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:25,440 super skeptic 718 00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:29,919 they firmly believe there's nothing 719 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:32,960 but hard things tables chairs 720 00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:34,480 and what's happening around about them 721 00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:36,640 they believe that like a religion and 722 00:24:40,149 --> 00:24:37,279 they will 723 00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:40,159 not change their viewpoints and i don't 724 00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:40,799 give a 725 00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:43,279 toughny toss but that is entirely up to 726 00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:45,279 them they are not ready to change 727 00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:47,200 now there are people with fundamentalist 728 00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:48,720 religion but 729 00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:51,279 for example saying near-death experience 730 00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:53,279 when someone has a near-death experience 731 00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:55,440 if they were a christian they interpret 732 00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:56,640 that lovely feeling 733 00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:58,880 as being jesus that's their 734 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:00,000 interpretation 735 00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:03,520 a hindu would see some other god um 736 00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:06,720 jewish people might say moses but 737 00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:09,360 that is their interpretation of what 738 00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:10,960 they believe 739 00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:13,600 but it's interpreted in a different way 740 00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:15,200 it doesn't make the experience any 741 00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:15,600 different 742 00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,679 the experiences are the same just 743 00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:19,520 interpretation is different 744 00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:20,640 i just think we have to be really 745 00:25:22,950 --> 00:25:22,240 careful when we say stuff like that 746 00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:22,960 because it gets 747 00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:25,360 i mean i've studied that for tons you 748 00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:26,159 know i 749 00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:27,840 interviewed gregory shushan who did a 750 00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:29,200 cross-cultural analysis 751 00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:31,039 of near-death experience across all 752 00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:32,320 these different cultures 753 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:35,360 and across native cultures uh 754 00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:37,600 you know pre-colonial cultures and over 755 00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:39,440 time which is probably the best way to 756 00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:40,159 get at that 757 00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:41,919 but when we throw that out there that 758 00:25:45,909 --> 00:25:43,440 you know if you saw 759 00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,919 jesus then that means that's your 760 00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:46,880 interpretation 761 00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:49,600 it it it begs the question of what is 762 00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:50,960 really going on 763 00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:53,360 in these extended realms and as soon as 764 00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:54,880 we start talking about extended realms 765 00:25:57,510 --> 00:25:55,279 and see 766 00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:57,520 this to me is like the problem when we 767 00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:58,880 talk about science and you talk about 768 00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:00,480 fundamentalist religion and like we 769 00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:01,600 don't even know what that means 770 00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:03,039 we don't know what fundamentalist 771 00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:04,799 science means right 772 00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:08,000 if if we accept it perhaps 773 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:11,120 the fundamental ground of all this 774 00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:14,640 is consciousness and that materialism 775 00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:18,400 and that materialism fails then all 776 00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:20,720 most science as we know it is 777 00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:21,840 fundamentalist 778 00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:25,200 in a really in a way that distorts 779 00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:27,120 all our results anyway i mean think 780 00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:28,720 about everything we're measuring now 781 00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:30,480 unless we're measuring consciousness in 782 00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:31,440 the equation 783 00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:33,600 we can't really rely on our measurement 784 00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:35,039 you can't measure consciousness you 785 00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:36,960 can't you can't measure love you can't 786 00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,360 say 787 00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:39,120 i'm going to measure how much i love my 788 00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,480 wife or my children 789 00:26:43,830 --> 00:26:42,080 you can't measured it it's the same with 790 00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:43,840 consciousness but you published three 791 00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:45,840 peer-reviewed papers 792 00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:48,000 so i'm glad you measured it i'm glad you 793 00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:49,520 measured it the way that you did 794 00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:51,120 and so i think we have to hold both of 795 00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:54,000 these things and and hold them 796 00:26:58,549 --> 00:26:56,320 kind of loosely and one is the fact well 797 00:27:02,310 --> 00:26:58,559 we do want to nudge a little bit closer 798 00:27:05,669 --> 00:27:02,320 to the truth we even if that truth is 799 00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:05,679 you know provisional and and what has 800 00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:07,120 subject to change and is 801 00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:08,559 never really going to be right because 802 00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:10,640 we're looking at it from the wrong side 803 00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:11,600 of the telescope 804 00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:13,360 it still does move us a little bit 805 00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:14,960 further down the path 806 00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:16,799 well i hope so i mean i just look at the 807 00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:18,720 evidence say well if this happened which 808 00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:19,440 it did 809 00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:22,240 how do you explain that what what other 810 00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,679 way can you explain 811 00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:25,760 for example i don't know if you read the 812 00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:28,240 my murder case in one of my books 813 00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:30,559 where a woman came to me and her 814 00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:32,320 daughter had been murdered i didn't know 815 00:27:35,830 --> 00:27:33,440 her at all 816 00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,840 and so i suggested she bring me an 817 00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:37,360 envelope with something that belonged to 818 00:27:40,789 --> 00:27:38,159 her daughter 819 00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:40,799 and i took it to several regions that 820 00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:42,240 story tell that story from 821 00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:44,399 from the beginning okay so so first of 822 00:27:48,149 --> 00:27:45,840 all you're not 823 00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:48,159 uh you're not a medium you're a 824 00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:49,039 researcher 825 00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:52,080 of after death communication and you've 826 00:27:56,389 --> 00:27:55,120 somehow connected with professor archie 827 00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:56,399 roy and he says wow 828 00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:58,240 trish you are great you're on the ball 829 00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:59,440 you're really smart 830 00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,679 and you know how to do this we worked 831 00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:03,120 well together yeah we worked well 832 00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,000 together 833 00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:06,240 so now so now people start finding you 834 00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:07,520 and they start 835 00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:12,080 coming out people find me all the time 836 00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:14,399 so so now you run into this case that is 837 00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:15,200 like this 838 00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:16,960 psychic detective you're kind of pulled 839 00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:19,840 into the psychic detective kind of thing 840 00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:22,080 absolutely explain what happened because 841 00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,679 again you're not the medium but you are 842 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:25,600 the go-between here 843 00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:27,840 i i like to think i'm the common sense 844 00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:28,960 person in the middle 845 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:31,760 because it all of this does have some 846 00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:32,960 sense 847 00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:35,120 behind it just that we don't know what 848 00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:37,039 the what the game is we don't know how 849 00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:38,240 to play the game but we could only 850 00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:39,760 observe what happens anyway 851 00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:42,559 this woman got hold of me and she said 852 00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:42,960 that 853 00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,960 her daughter had been murdered six 854 00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:46,320 months previously 855 00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:48,399 and the police were not making any 856 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:50,640 headway with it whatsoever 857 00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,200 and obviously she wanted me to give give 858 00:28:57,590 --> 00:28:55,440 her a reading with a medium which i 859 00:28:59,269 --> 00:28:57,600 wasn't going to do because it's far too 860 00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:59,279 early i've heard you tell this story 861 00:29:01,029 --> 00:29:00,480 before and i and i have a couple of 862 00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:01,039 questions 863 00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:03,200 that i haven't heard you talk before so 864 00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:05,679 when the mother comes to you 865 00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,360 do you know if she had any communication 866 00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:11,600 directly with her daughter or was there 867 00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:13,200 any like you know you hear 868 00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:16,080 electrical lights going on and off or a 869 00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:18,159 presence or she had nothing 870 00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:19,919 she had nothing well i think what she 871 00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:21,600 was looking for was information of her 872 00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:23,520 daughter's murder to be honest more than 873 00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:24,640 anything else 874 00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:27,919 so i said to her i said well i'll meet 875 00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:29,440 you again in a couple of days 876 00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:31,200 bring me something that belonged to your 877 00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:33,039 daughter in a sealed envelope that was 878 00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:33,760 all i said 879 00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:35,760 was a sealed envelope so i met the 880 00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:37,840 mother and she brought a brown 881 00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:41,039 a5 envelope with something in it that 882 00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:41,840 was lumpy 883 00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:44,080 but it just felt like lumpy things it 884 00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:45,840 wasn't a watch it wasn't a ring it was 885 00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:46,320 just 886 00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,279 lumpy so i said leave it with me and 887 00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:51,200 i'll take this to a few mediums and see 888 00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:51,600 if 889 00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,159 we can get any information at all so i 890 00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:56,240 took it to a couple of mediums who made 891 00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:58,960 a couple of random statements one said 892 00:30:01,990 --> 00:30:00,320 bizarrely 893 00:30:03,990 --> 00:30:02,000 before this they got the girl was 894 00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:04,000 murdered and they said before this girl 895 00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:05,120 was murdered that 896 00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:07,200 that very day she'd been to the dentist 897 00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:08,240 now i found that a 898 00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:11,039 most peculiar statement so now it when 899 00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:11,679 you 900 00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,799 because this is a 901 00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:16,720 criminal this is a criminal 902 00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,840 investigation 903 00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,600 did you give any thought to what you 904 00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:21,679 were getting involved in when you when 905 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:22,000 you did 906 00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:25,120 this no i if people need help regarding 907 00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:25,840 these things 908 00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:27,600 i try and offer the help with it where i 909 00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,360 can i'm just 910 00:30:33,269 --> 00:30:31,679 going to do this in my computer my 911 00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,279 publisher keeps 912 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:35,600 texting me while we're on the were 913 00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,480 working here 914 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:38,480 anyway mother came to me if i've 915 00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:40,320 enveloped took it to two 916 00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:42,960 different uh mediums and a there was 917 00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:44,159 nothing you could say 918 00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:47,440 much of it all then i then the dentist 919 00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:47,760 thing 920 00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:51,120 quite well i didn't i don't know if i 921 00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:52,399 don't know if that's right or not i 922 00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:53,440 haven't a clue 923 00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:55,440 the other medium said a black taxi was 924 00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:56,799 involved and 925 00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:59,440 that turned out to be true as well but 926 00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:00,720 it meant nothing to me 927 00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:02,880 i don't know the mother i don't know the 928 00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,080 murder case 929 00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:06,159 uh it was six months earlier knew 930 00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:07,600 nothing about it whatsoever 931 00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:10,480 which is good so i took it to a medium 932 00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:11,919 that i do know 933 00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:13,760 and i was able to walk into the house 934 00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:15,200 where the medium was sitting on the 935 00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:16,159 laptop 936 00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:19,360 at a big desk and i threw the envelope 937 00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:20,080 on the 938 00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,120 what you get from this envelope 939 00:31:29,509 --> 00:31:27,600 and the medium who knows me well said do 940 00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,519 i have to and i went yeah 941 00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:31,679 yeah didn't you say she was like playing 942 00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:33,279 a video game and smoking a cigarette and 943 00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:33,600 like 944 00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:35,919 totally disinterested in one hand 945 00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:37,200 absolutely 946 00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:40,000 seriously it was like do i have to and i 947 00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:40,480 went 948 00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:42,799 yeah now the thing is i have a very good 949 00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,240 reputation 950 00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:46,720 so people know if i ask them something 951 00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:47,360 it's not 952 00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,640 something silly no so i i said nothing 953 00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:51,840 just put it down 954 00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,559 and grudgingly very grudgingly the 955 00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:56,480 medium put the hand on the thing 956 00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:00,000 and immediately i would say a second if 957 00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,960 or a half a second later the cigarette 958 00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:04,320 was still in one hand 959 00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:06,640 and the medium said i've got a girl here 960 00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:08,080 that was murdered 961 00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:11,200 and i just went as you do 962 00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:13,600 of course i've i've got taking notes 963 00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,480 mm-hmm 964 00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:17,279 and then described her a girl with long 965 00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:19,039 brown hair down to here 966 00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:22,480 and once again she's telling and then 967 00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:25,120 the medium gave me 29 pieces of 968 00:32:30,149 --> 00:32:26,799 information 969 00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:30,159 misses 970 00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:32,399 real specific give give folks an example 971 00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:33,919 because some of the stuff that came out 972 00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:37,200 she she misses her three cats she lived 973 00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:37,760 up 974 00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:39,120 we call it a close i don't know what you 975 00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:41,279 call it in america she lived up a close 976 00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:43,919 one up on the right the street she lived 977 00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,000 in was a cul-de-sac 978 00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:48,960 she had a tattoos above her breast and 979 00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:49,760 described 980 00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:51,919 the colors and the shapes of the tattoos 981 00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:53,919 another tattoo on her arm 982 00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:57,120 described and colored as well she said 983 00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:59,760 her we'll call her boyfriend gordon that 984 00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:00,720 wasn't his name 985 00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:03,200 she said they gordon was the first one 986 00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:03,840 to know 987 00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:06,240 that i was dead and he fought which 988 00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:08,000 which that's kind of an interesting 989 00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:08,880 detail there that 990 00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,320 and i love the way you pulled this out 991 00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:12,240 in this one it was either in the book or 992 00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:13,919 in an interview i heard you do 993 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:17,039 because that is post mortem in 994 00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:19,840 god right so sometimes people go oh 995 00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:20,720 they're just going 996 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:22,880 i love when when when doubters are 997 00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:24,080 skeptic people go 998 00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:26,960 well they're just accessing the akashic 999 00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:33,029 explain something this is this is what 1000 00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:34,880 this is what i absolutely love about 1001 00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:35,679 this case 1002 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:37,600 and it happened to me and i know it and 1003 00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:39,360 then then 1004 00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:41,120 i have to say the girl said because it 1005 00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:43,120 was like a three-way conversation 1006 00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:46,320 the medium said she's telling me 1007 00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:49,200 that today her mother my mother she said 1008 00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:49,840 my mother 1009 00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:52,000 has moved my photograph from the top of 1010 00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:53,120 the mantelpiece 1011 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:54,880 to the top of the television and of 1012 00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:56,880 course i'm writing this down i have 1013 00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:59,760 no clue if this is right or wrong and 1014 00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:00,240 then 1015 00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:03,919 telling me 1016 00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:05,600 that when she was younger she was in 1017 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:07,279 corntonville prison 1018 00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:10,720 and i thought bloody hell i mean you you 1019 00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,599 cannot guess 1020 00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:13,119 somebody you don't know was in 1021 00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:15,440 contentville prison i don't know anyone 1022 00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:16,639 who's been in prison 1023 00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,359 far less a younger girl this girl was 26 1024 00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:21,200 by the way but she was in prison 1025 00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:24,079 when she was younger and she also said 1026 00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:25,040 that she had 1027 00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:28,079 abortion 1028 00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:30,639 when she was younger oh andy what else 1029 00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:31,280 was 1030 00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,000 the cats the cul-de-sac the tattoos 1031 00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,000 the fact that she was in prison the fact 1032 00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:42,159 that and gordon was the first one to 1033 00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,280 know she died 1034 00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:45,200 um trying to remember the rest so anyway 1035 00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:47,280 29 pieces of information 1036 00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:50,399 and i wrote it all down so i then i then 1037 00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:52,320 made arrangements two days later to meet 1038 00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:54,000 the mother in her own house 1039 00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:57,599 which i'd never been to before so 1040 00:35:01,510 --> 00:34:59,839 i walk into the house and the first 1041 00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:01,520 thing i see in the lounge is a 1042 00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:03,119 photograph of a girl on top of the 1043 00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:04,320 television 1044 00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:07,119 and i said oh is it i'm trying not to 1045 00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:07,920 use her name 1046 00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,400 i said oh is this this your daughter she 1047 00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:12,160 said yes that's her she said i 1048 00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:14,480 i moved a photograph there two days ago 1049 00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:15,520 which was the time 1050 00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:18,079 i was speaking to the medium so once 1051 00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:19,920 again you've got your postmortem 1052 00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:20,960 information 1053 00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,720 how would she know the photograph was 1054 00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:24,079 moved from there 1055 00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:28,400 to the top of the television and uh 1056 00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:30,320 and anyway there's 29 pieces of 1057 00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:31,680 information specific 1058 00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:34,560 individual piece of information but i 1059 00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:35,599 chickened out i 1060 00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:37,040 i don't know if i did the wrong thing or 1061 00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:38,800 not i only read 1062 00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:41,520 22 pieces to the mother because the girl 1063 00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:42,800 gave me an account of 1064 00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:45,040 how she was murdered she said it was two 1065 00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,240 men that murdered her 1066 00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:49,119 and all all her injuries were at her 1067 00:35:52,550 --> 00:35:49,920 back 1068 00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:52,560 they put tea towels around her neck i 1069 00:35:57,109 --> 00:35:54,640 hope the mother doesn't see this 1070 00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:57,119 pulled her back and she gave me very 1071 00:36:01,829 --> 00:35:59,440 specific information about her murder 1072 00:36:03,670 --> 00:36:01,839 now i also didn't tell the murderer 1073 00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:03,680 about the girl having an abortion 1074 00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,680 because i thought it's bad enough your 1075 00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:07,440 daughter's been murdered 1076 00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:09,520 i don't want to tell you that when she 1077 00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:11,200 was younger she had an abortion 1078 00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:14,160 i kind of chickened out i i think it 1079 00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:15,520 would still do that again 1080 00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:18,079 because that you've got to be a way of 1081 00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:19,760 the people's emotions that's that's what 1082 00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:20,560 it's all about 1083 00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:23,599 anyway the 22 pieces i did read out 1084 00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:26,320 where every single one was totally and 1085 00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:27,680 utterly correct 1086 00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:30,880 100 correct down to the fact that 1087 00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:33,839 the boyfriend knew she was dead and then 1088 00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:34,800 he phoned 1089 00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:37,200 the mother to tell that the girl was 1090 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:37,839 dead 1091 00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:39,760 so you have to say to yourself as you 1092 00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:40,880 have 1093 00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:42,960 well the medium didn't know that 1094 00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:44,240 information he didn't know the 1095 00:36:47,829 --> 00:36:45,760 information until i 1096 00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:47,839 walked in the door i didn't know the 1097 00:36:53,349 --> 00:36:49,920 info the other thing was it was very 1098 00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:53,359 very good was the girl said the accounts 1099 00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:55,839 of my murder in the newspapers were all 1100 00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:56,640 wrong 1101 00:37:00,310 --> 00:36:59,359 they described the clothes i was wearing 1102 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,320 completely 1103 00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:03,200 incorrectly and she gave me the correct 1104 00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:04,720 things that she was wearing when she was 1105 00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:05,839 murdered 1106 00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:07,680 and that turned out to be absolutely 1107 00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:09,040 correct as well 1108 00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:12,079 so it's not like oh you you were sad 1109 00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,440 last christmas 1110 00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:16,079 as you know as a lot of legends do no 1111 00:37:19,829 --> 00:37:17,440 this is specific 1112 00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:19,839 information and quite frankly i was 1113 00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:21,760 blown away by as well i 1114 00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,320 couldn't believe it now i know the next 1115 00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:26,240 question you're going to ask me 1116 00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:28,320 the mother had been working with a woman 1117 00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:29,680 detective 1118 00:37:33,589 --> 00:37:32,400 inspector all during this who was 1119 00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:33,599 wonderful to her 1120 00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,960 giving her great support so i was hoping 1121 00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:38,480 that i'd be able to speak to the 1122 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:39,440 inspector 1123 00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:45,040 moved on and it was a new person on the 1124 00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:45,680 case 1125 00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:48,320 and from experience i knew there was no 1126 00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:49,680 point in me trying to speak to the 1127 00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:50,160 police 1128 00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:52,000 because they would just say here is a 1129 00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,839 nutter they don't know trisha roberts 1130 00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:55,680 and they don't know my reputation 1131 00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:58,000 so when she described her killers as 1132 00:38:02,710 --> 00:37:59,760 well you know what they look like 1133 00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:02,720 um and i thought no this is this is not 1134 00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:03,520 right 1135 00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:06,160 and they never actually ever did get 1136 00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:08,320 somebody for that girl's murder 1137 00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:10,560 but that was a real that was a wow 1138 00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:11,920 moment for me that was 1139 00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:14,240 bloody hell you know she was in 1140 00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:15,520 contaminated prison 1141 00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:18,560 oh that's a cracker you know i've worked 1142 00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:20,320 with a lot of uh 1143 00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:21,680 i shouldn't say a lot but i've done 1144 00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:23,119 several interviews with psychic 1145 00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:25,520 detectives and worked on cases 1146 00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:28,079 i knew that was coming you know because 1147 00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:28,800 really 1148 00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:32,320 what i found more often is that people 1149 00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:33,440 in your situation 1150 00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:35,680 will go to law enforcement and they 1151 00:38:40,470 --> 00:38:37,760 immediately become a suspect 1152 00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:40,480 yes that's right that's right yeah 1153 00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:41,680 that's true 1154 00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:43,920 which you know it's just kind of part of 1155 00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:44,880 the thing but see 1156 00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:47,200 well it it was it goes back to your 1157 00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:49,040 original question actually 1158 00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:51,280 about the world in general now i don't 1159 00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:52,480 know about america 1160 00:38:56,710 --> 00:38:56,160 hey some of this guy i did uh i i did a 1161 00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:56,720 very 1162 00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,000 good couple of documentaries for bbc 1163 00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:02,640 one and i think it was channel four 1164 00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:03,520 years ago 1165 00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:05,200 in which they gave a very fair 1166 00:39:08,230 --> 00:39:07,359 assessment you know what was going on at 1167 00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:08,240 the time 1168 00:39:11,829 --> 00:39:11,280 but a lot of our channels like bbc now 1169 00:39:15,589 --> 00:39:11,839 and 1170 00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:15,599 stv they're all owned by people who are 1171 00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:18,560 avid christians and they will never show 1172 00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:20,000 these things in a good light 1173 00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:22,400 they just will not do it it's biased i 1174 00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:23,680 don't know about america 1175 00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:26,960 can't see oh man don't pull us back into 1176 00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:28,000 that you kind of 1177 00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:30,560 tidy it up at the end and say wow 1178 00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:31,760 amazing 1179 00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:34,320 isn't that great when it's like no what 1180 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,520 does that mean 1181 00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:37,680 if we're going to talk about the 1182 00:39:41,510 --> 00:39:38,720 extended 1183 00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:41,520 consciousness realm yeah like is there a 1184 00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:42,640 moral imperative 1185 00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:45,040 is there a hierarchy to consciousness is 1186 00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:46,079 there god you know 1187 00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:48,000 you look at the near-death experience it 1188 00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:50,480 pretty clearly points to 1189 00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:53,280 both a moral imperative there is a right 1190 00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:54,560 there is a wrong 1191 00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:57,280 and then it also points to a hierarchy 1192 00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:58,160 of consciousness 1193 00:40:01,349 --> 00:40:00,480 there is something like a god and there 1194 00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:01,359 isn't no 1195 00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,960 well i would call it cosmic 1196 00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,800 consciousness yeah well you can call it 1197 00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:06,079 what you want if there's a hierarchy of 1198 00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:07,200 consciousness 1199 00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:11,359 there's a hierarchy definitely a 1200 00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:15,119 hierarchy that most definitely is yeah 1201 00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:17,119 there's a lovely book i read always many 1202 00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:19,680 years ago called on the death of my son 1203 00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,319 by jasper swain who was a lawyer south 1204 00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:24,480 african lawyer um 1205 00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:26,480 and his he didn't believe in anything 1206 00:40:30,550 --> 00:40:27,520 and his son 1207 00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:30,560 died when he was 19 in a car crash 1208 00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:33,440 and immediately the son had died he was 1209 00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:34,480 back 1210 00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:36,319 in spirit form the next day sitting in 1211 00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:38,960 the back of the car now jasper sweden 1212 00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,760 did not but he did not believe this or 1213 00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:43,359 like at all but he had to go with the 1214 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:44,400 facts where 1215 00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,480 and they started the book's a great 1216 00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:48,800 dialogue between him and his son 1217 00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:51,200 in other consciousness and interesting 1218 00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:53,440 thing the sun said was 1219 00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:56,319 gee dad there's no such thing as hell he 1220 00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:56,880 said that's 1221 00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:59,440 only in the minds of the people who live 1222 00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:00,480 on earth 1223 00:41:04,309 --> 00:41:02,640 it's not like that he said it's like 1224 00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:04,319 levels of darkness 1225 00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:07,680 he said i can go up to a brighter light 1226 00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,400 than where i 1227 00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:11,200 am but it becomes so bright i have to 1228 00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:12,319 come down again 1229 00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:14,240 he said but i can go to the darker 1230 00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,079 realms but i don't like it 1231 00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:18,960 and i scoot back up again to where i am 1232 00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:20,560 it's as if you gravitate 1233 00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:23,680 to your own level of light your 60 watt 1234 00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:24,400 bulb or 1235 00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:27,440 whatever you want there is this level 1236 00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:28,720 i don't know what it means but there 1237 00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:31,920 does appear to be this level 1238 00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:34,000 well that's one account and i and so i 1239 00:41:37,109 --> 00:41:35,599 think that's an interesting thing 1240 00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:37,119 i mean there's lots more accounts than 1241 00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,040 that that's just one account 1242 00:41:43,589 --> 00:41:41,520 that adds to all the the huge amount of 1243 00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:43,599 information that's actually there 1244 00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:46,480 um but there's other way i mean another 1245 00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:49,200 sort of a question that throws another 1246 00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:50,400 span on the works is 1247 00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:51,920 i don't know if you know the work works 1248 00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,000 of jericho see the dutch clairvoyant do 1249 00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,400 you know jared 1250 00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:59,040 but jericho class he lived it was dead 1251 00:42:01,910 --> 00:42:00,160 now obviously 1252 00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:01,920 jared quincy worked with the dutch 1253 00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:04,319 police for 40 years excuse me frogging 1254 00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:11,670 and he wasn't a very nice man jack quasi 1255 00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:13,839 when the police phoned him up he wrote 1256 00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:17,200 you know more or less do i have to 1257 00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:20,160 but it didn't matter to jared kwasi if a 1258 00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:22,319 person was missing if he were alive or 1259 00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:23,119 dead 1260 00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:25,280 he would simply get the information and 1261 00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:27,680 say it it's actually in my my third 1262 00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:29,119 books at the publisher 1263 00:42:33,829 --> 00:42:31,520 and one of the things i expand on is the 1264 00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:33,839 work of jared quasi which is fascinating 1265 00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:35,520 for more than one reason 1266 00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:37,839 because if somebody phones up and says 1267 00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,520 there's a nine-year-old boy missing in 1268 00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:41,520 such and such a town 1269 00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:45,359 and quasi just goes uh he's still alive 1270 00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:47,200 and he can give you details of where the 1271 00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:48,079 boy is 1272 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:49,760 while he's still alive where you will 1273 00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:52,000 find them and that happens time after 1274 00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:52,960 time 1275 00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:55,119 or they can get somebody and say i'm 1276 00:42:57,910 --> 00:42:56,240 very sorry 1277 00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:57,920 they're dead and you'll find their body 1278 00:43:02,870 --> 00:42:59,680 in the river under a bridge 1279 00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:02,880 and he can do all of that grudgingly 1280 00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:04,880 and they worked with the police for 40 1281 00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:07,280 years never took a penny 1282 00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:09,440 those of us who work i would say 1283 00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:10,480 correctly 1284 00:43:14,069 --> 00:43:13,280 um i'm not knocking regions that have to 1285 00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:14,079 take money 1286 00:43:17,349 --> 00:43:16,400 we never take any no money at all 1287 00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:17,359 because it keeps it 1288 00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:19,599 it's a scottish thing it's a calvinistic 1289 00:43:21,910 --> 00:43:20,480 honesty 1290 00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:21,920 you have to keep it real you have to 1291 00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:24,319 keep it honest you don't make anything 1292 00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:25,359 out of this 1293 00:43:29,829 --> 00:43:28,640 but the fact that jericho keeps treats 1294 00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:29,839 people are alive 1295 00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:32,000 the same as people who have passed over 1296 00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:33,599 it's interesting 1297 00:43:37,109 --> 00:43:36,000 experiments were done with quasi by 1298 00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:37,119 professor 1299 00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:42,079 you can read it later it's far too long 1300 00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:43,280 to explain 1301 00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:46,000 quasi never miss there was 400 1302 00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,440 experiments done with them 1303 00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:50,560 all around the world using the protocol 1304 00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:50,880 like 1305 00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:53,040 kind of a protocol that we used agenda 1306 00:43:57,430 --> 00:43:54,319 gen antiquasi 1307 00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:57,440 was never found to be wanting so where 1308 00:44:02,790 --> 00:43:59,359 does that leave it and quasi said 1309 00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:02,800 i don't know how i do it i just ask the 1310 00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:03,440 question 1311 00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:05,359 and i get the answer so that doesn't 1312 00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:08,000 really help us either does it 1313 00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:10,079 yeah well but that's i think where we 1314 00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:11,280 have to get to the bottom of 1315 00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:12,640 or not get to the bottom of it because 1316 00:44:14,309 --> 00:44:13,839 we're not supposed to get to the bottom 1317 00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:14,319 of it 1318 00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:15,680 but i think we do have to have a more 1319 00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,079 systematic way of kind of dealing 1320 00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,440 with these accounts and then 1321 00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:21,599 incorporating in 1322 00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:23,680 the experiments because when when mark 1323 00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:25,040 first contacted me 1324 00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:26,480 you know that's what he led with because 1325 00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:28,240 he knew that's what i'm interested in is 1326 00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:29,440 this intersection 1327 00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:31,760 canned science can the scientific method 1328 00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:33,599 i mean science is hopelessly 1329 00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:36,079 lost because it's led to materialism and 1330 00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:37,280 it thinks that 1331 00:44:40,550 --> 00:44:38,960 consciousness is an illusion and you're 1332 00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:40,560 a biological robot in a meaningless 1333 00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:41,119 universe 1334 00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:43,119 but there's tools there that we can pick 1335 00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:44,160 up and use so 1336 00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:45,760 i'm always interested in the science you 1337 00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:47,200 know by the way in terms of 1338 00:44:51,190 --> 00:44:50,800 mark so mark ireland is an interesting 1339 00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:51,200 guy 1340 00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:52,960 and do you know about his history do you 1341 00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:54,800 know about his father richard ireland 1342 00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:57,920 yeah i do yes uh but that i do i i i 1343 00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:59,760 didn't know about him until mark told me 1344 00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:00,160 about 1345 00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:02,480 it yeah i mean mark sends me all the 1346 00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,000 proofs for his books before 1347 00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:06,640 he publishes them so i know i know all 1348 00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:07,440 about that 1349 00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:10,160 but mark if you read between the lines i 1350 00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:11,200 mean i've 1351 00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:14,400 i met mark last year in in edinburgh 1352 00:45:18,309 --> 00:45:17,200 and mark he really didn't like the fact 1353 00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:18,319 his father was 1354 00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:21,119 a the phoenix oracle he really as a boy 1355 00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,079 he didn't like it 1356 00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:24,640 but he's now come he's found his father 1357 00:45:29,589 --> 00:45:26,000 through his own 1358 00:45:33,349 --> 00:45:29,599 is rather nice 1359 00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:33,359 yeah well let's let's talk about that 1360 00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:34,880 for a minute as we wrap things up 1361 00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,960 because i think it it gets to this thing 1362 00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:38,640 i keep hammering on 1363 00:45:42,069 --> 00:45:41,359 so just because i like doing that and 1364 00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:42,079 because i like 1365 00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:45,440 torturing people who don't know me 1366 00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:47,280 but for folks who don't know or don't 1367 00:45:51,910 --> 00:45:48,880 remember so 1368 00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:51,920 mark ireland went through just about the 1369 00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:52,880 worst thing that 1370 00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:55,359 i can imagine as a parent you're going 1371 00:45:59,190 --> 00:45:56,720 through and that was 1372 00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:59,200 the loss of his son and that sent him on 1373 00:46:01,829 --> 00:46:00,000 this journey 1374 00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:01,839 of trying to connect with his son and 1375 00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:03,040 that's what he 1376 00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:04,960 chronicles in this book that you wrote 1377 00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,480 the forward to called 1378 00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:08,079 soul shift that i just had up on the 1379 00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:10,319 screen because you just alluded to 1380 00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:11,599 you know one of the interesting things 1381 00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,319 about mark's story 1382 00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:16,720 and this is a strange coincidence or 1383 00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:19,280 it's not a coincidence or a part of the 1384 00:46:24,870 --> 00:46:21,760 journey that everybody's on 1385 00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:24,880 turns out that mark's father was 1386 00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:28,319 a stage [\h__\h] a stage magician or maybe 1387 00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:31,119 more accurately a mentalist yeah and he 1388 00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:31,680 would do 1389 00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:34,160 his act basically involved him doing 1390 00:46:40,150 --> 00:46:35,200 this 1391 00:46:42,309 --> 00:46:40,160 like a late night tv thing he was on 1392 00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:42,319 late night tv all the time he was a huge 1393 00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:44,000 celebrity and then he did las vegas 1394 00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:45,599 shows but he'd be completely violent 1395 00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:47,119 blindfolded like 1396 00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,280 yeah you know tape over the eyes i mean 1397 00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:51,440 sincerely completely blindfolded 1398 00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:53,119 and yet he could see things 1399 00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:54,720 telepathically so he'd tell 1400 00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:57,440 audience members like take a bill out of 1401 00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:58,480 your wallet 1402 00:47:01,589 --> 00:47:01,200 i know i saw that yeah the digits right 1403 00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:01,599 yeah 1404 00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:05,920 story or i should really say 1405 00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,880 richard's story his dad his dad was not 1406 00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:10,079 such a great father 1407 00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:12,880 his dad was an alcoholic and dealt with 1408 00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:14,400 those kind of issues 1409 00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:17,520 and he also dealt with what 1410 00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:20,480 this gift was that he was going out like 1411 00:47:24,069 --> 00:47:21,680 a show pony 1412 00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:24,079 and halfway worried that it would 1413 00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:25,440 somehow escape him 1414 00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:29,119 and that the act would be up so this too 1415 00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:32,480 gets it you know we want to put all this 1416 00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:35,920 meaning and attach it to what we observe 1417 00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:37,680 going on with this communication 1418 00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:39,359 but that's the thing that really hooks 1419 00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:41,200 me into richard's story 1420 00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,760 richard ireland's story is it calls into 1421 00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:45,520 question 1422 00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:49,280 where is the right and wrong in this 1423 00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:51,200 you know the calvinistic don't make any 1424 00:47:54,069 --> 00:47:52,480 money is that 1425 00:47:55,589 --> 00:47:54,079 need to be applied i have a lot of 1426 00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:55,599 friends who are in the major you know it 1427 00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,720 doesn't though 1428 00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:58,240 well how do we know that you know i have 1429 00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:59,440 a lot of friends here in the magic 1430 00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:00,960 community the cult community 1431 00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:04,079 hey is that okay aren't we all trying to 1432 00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:06,800 use this extended realm for our benefit 1433 00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:08,880 in some way is that what we should do 1434 00:48:12,710 --> 00:48:11,280 what is this what is the the moral 1435 00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:12,720 imperative for each of us 1436 00:48:16,309 --> 00:48:14,319 so but you shake your head and you have 1437 00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:16,319 quick answers but don't you think we 1438 00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:17,920 need to do the work on that don't you 1439 00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:19,440 think we need to do this some kind of we 1440 00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:20,079 can put together 1441 00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:23,200 you and 1442 00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:25,920 uh professor roy did some great work 1443 00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:27,760 don't you think there's an opportunity 1444 00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:29,359 to nudge a little bit closer to the 1445 00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:30,559 truth rather than just say 1446 00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:32,480 yes no i know i heard it i have this 1447 00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,640 account i have that account 1448 00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:36,319 well i don't know how you would do that 1449 00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:38,240 i can only speak for myself 1450 00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:41,760 and my my raison d'etre is simply to let 1451 00:48:46,069 --> 00:48:43,440 people who do not know 1452 00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:46,079 that their loved ones survive in 1453 00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:47,520 consciousness anyway 1454 00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:49,760 people are broken-hearted and that's why 1455 00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:51,520 i don't like skeptics because they take 1456 00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:52,960 away hope from people 1457 00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:55,040 that they will they've actually their 1458 00:48:58,630 --> 00:48:56,079 mothers died i'm 1459 00:48:59,190 --> 00:48:58,640 never gonna hear or see them see them 1460 00:49:02,069 --> 00:48:59,200 again 1461 00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:02,079 and i have so much evidence so much 1462 00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:03,280 experience with that 1463 00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:05,680 i know that's not true and that is my 1464 00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:07,040 only reason letter 1465 00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:09,280 is to try and help people to understand 1466 00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:10,559 death is not the end 1467 00:49:13,589 --> 00:49:12,240 and to put two fingers up to the 1468 00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:13,599 skeptics and say 1469 00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:15,599 you're you're not helping you're not 1470 00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:17,119 helping yourself you're not helping 1471 00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:17,920 anyone 1472 00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:20,880 that is i can only speak for myself uh 1473 00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:22,800 there are some regimes in it for money 1474 00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:26,319 yes certainly um other than that i have 1475 00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,079 really no interest i can only tell you 1476 00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:30,240 what i do 1477 00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:31,760 trish you want to tell folks about it 1478 00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:33,280 sounds like you have a new book coming 1479 00:49:38,230 --> 00:49:33,760 out 1480 00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:38,240 doing and how they can stay in touch 1481 00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:39,119 with you 1482 00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:42,160 well the the well i've got a website 1483 00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:45,200 my website's a www 1484 00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:48,240 dot trisha robertson spell t r i c i 1485 00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:51,760 a robertson.weebly.com i think it's an 1486 00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:53,280 american site actually 1487 00:49:56,710 --> 00:49:55,440 they can read more about it i've also 1488 00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:56,720 done healing studies 1489 00:50:02,630 --> 00:49:59,920 they can read that as well uh you put me 1490 00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:02,640 off what i was going to say now 1491 00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:04,559 the new book the book the book the book 1492 00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:06,640 well the third book is not 1493 00:50:10,390 --> 00:50:08,480 following on from the first two in the 1494 00:50:12,630 --> 00:50:10,400 same sense 1495 00:50:13,510 --> 00:50:12,640 every book's a bit deeper than the last 1496 00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:13,520 one 1497 00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:16,079 and the third book is called i was going 1498 00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:18,319 to call it it's life and death gym 1499 00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:20,000 but not as you know it but i thought no 1500 00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:22,400 some people might not get the star trek 1501 00:50:25,510 --> 00:50:24,400 inference in that so i've just called it 1502 00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:25,520 it's life and death 1503 00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:28,640 but not as you know it and then it 1504 00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:29,280 really is 1505 00:50:33,109 --> 00:50:31,680 from the unbelievable to the bizarre 1506 00:50:35,829 --> 00:50:33,119 because it's just 1507 00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:35,839 the stuff in there is just unbelievable 1508 00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:37,359 you know i go into depth about 1509 00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:40,960 um ted sirius who could think 1510 00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:44,720 um pictures on to film and ted series 1511 00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:46,800 once again was not the nicest person but 1512 00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,599 he 1513 00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:49,440 it could definitely do it but not to 1514 00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:50,800 order but he could 1515 00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:53,200 do it and then you've got bizarre people 1516 00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:59,589 well he's an american he was a musical 1517 00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:01,359 medium and i'm not going to tell you 1518 00:51:05,589 --> 00:51:03,839 because it's so bizarre and i wouldn't 1519 00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:05,599 get all the right words just telling you 1520 00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:06,240 because it's 1521 00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:08,800 very very in-depth it's all about weird 1522 00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:09,680 things 1523 00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:11,920 uh it really is from the unbelievable to 1524 00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:13,839 the bizarre i talk about premonition 1525 00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:15,119 there's another one 1526 00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:17,280 retro cognition where you can see in the 1527 00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:18,400 past 1528 00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:22,480 i talk about ted sirius i talk about 1529 00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:25,200 a jesse shepard i also talk i do some 1530 00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:26,319 personal stuff 1531 00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:29,359 about um a couple a few more cases 1532 00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:32,000 and a few more things on mediumship that 1533 00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:34,079 are totally and utterly bizarre 1534 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:36,000 there's also a couple of swear words in 1535 00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:38,130 the third book but that's all right 1536 00:51:44,710 --> 00:51:41,359 [Laughter] 1537 00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:44,720 it's life in death but not as you know 1538 00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,119 it when is that going to be out 1539 00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:49,680 well it's not the publisher just now a 1540 00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:50,319 uh 1541 00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,150 as we were talking he was sending me 1542 00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:58,079 messages up on the screen here 1543 00:52:01,510 --> 00:52:00,240 asking me questions about the the 1544 00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,520 manuscript 1545 00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:04,000 okay so folks can look for it folks can 1546 00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:05,920 look for it on amazon 1547 00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:09,119 amazon amazon yes on amazon any either 1548 00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:10,480 amazon 1549 00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:13,200 dot com or uk you get them anywhere and 1550 00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:14,000 there's another 1551 00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:16,400 outlet for or any any good bookshop 1552 00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:18,400 we'll order them 1553 00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:21,680 pardon me but it is totally bizarre 1554 00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:24,640 i mean it's even bizarre to me and you 1555 00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:25,760 probably with all the things 1556 00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:28,880 that we've done already but i i like to 1557 00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:30,160 keep the 1558 00:52:36,390 --> 00:52:33,200 the vibe the the happy vibe of this is 1559 00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:36,400 it's normal but it's bizarre it's it's 1560 00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:39,200 it's nothing to do with religion at all 1561 00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:40,720 nothing at all 1562 00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:43,359 the grass is green the sky is blue these 1563 00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:44,400 things happen 1564 00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:46,640 we're trying to understand it but it's 1565 00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:47,760 like everything else 1566 00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:49,280 the more you go into these things the 1567 00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:51,040 less you understand it 1568 00:52:55,270 --> 00:52:53,760 i and i don't go into jargon because i'm 1569 00:52:57,349 --> 00:52:55,280 not parapsychologist 1570 00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:57,359 i'm not a neurologist i'm not a 1571 00:53:01,829 --> 00:52:58,720 neuroscientist 1572 00:53:02,870 --> 00:53:01,839 so they go into the minutiae of what 1573 00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:02,880 your brain is like 1574 00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:05,680 but from what i have seen and in 30 1575 00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,040 years experience 1576 00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:09,440 consciousness is not within the brain or 1577 00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:10,240 the body 1578 00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:12,720 it definitely survives otherwise how do 1579 00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:13,520 you explain 1580 00:53:16,870 --> 00:53:16,079 the murder case and all the cases like 1581 00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:16,880 it there's 1582 00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:19,520 many many hundreds of them that the 1583 00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:21,680 truth is out there 1584 00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:24,880 our guest 1585 00:53:28,069 --> 00:53:27,359 has been trying to get well actually a 1586 00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:28,079 hundred years 1587 00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:31,359 ago the spr in london wanted to try and 1588 00:53:34,549 --> 00:53:33,040 clarify these matters 1589 00:53:36,950 --> 00:53:34,559 and they thought that within a hundred 1590 00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:36,960 years it would all be explained but 1591 00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:37,599 actually 1592 00:53:40,630 --> 00:53:39,760 it's not we're not any further on with 1593 00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:40,640 the explanation 1594 00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:44,160 we just have more data we have uh well 1595 00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,440 it down in london they're trying to work 1596 00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:49,760 out how medium shape works by placing 1597 00:53:52,950 --> 00:53:51,520 you know electrodes in the brain which 1598 00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:52,960 feed into a computer 1599 00:53:56,150 --> 00:53:55,359 but that only tells us what's happening 1600 00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:56,160 in the brain 1601 00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:58,640 it doesn't really help us in our quest 1602 00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:00,240 for what is consciousness 1603 00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:03,440 it doesn't it does not 1604 00:54:09,589 --> 00:54:06,640 i would agree so all we can say is 1605 00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:09,599 the things i mean i i just love it all i 1606 00:54:12,150 --> 00:54:10,800 just love it i wouldn't do it if i 1607 00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:12,160 didn't love it 1608 00:54:16,710 --> 00:54:15,520 and i still get people phoning up things 1609 00:54:18,390 --> 00:54:16,720 happening in the house it was 1610 00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:18,400 spontaneous cases 1611 00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:21,760 um and i just i try to make sense of 1612 00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:22,800 them 1613 00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:26,880 call in a medium that 1614 00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:30,240 i would trust to help and i 1615 00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:33,280 from day one i make it quite clear i 1616 00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:35,280 have a cross between a psychical 1617 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:37,200 investigator and judge judy 1618 00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:38,450 i don't take any [\h__\h] 1619 00:54:43,630 --> 00:54:42,960 [Laughter] 1620 00:54:46,789 --> 00:54:43,640 that's true 1621 00:54:48,630 --> 00:54:46,799 [Laughter] 1622 00:54:50,470 --> 00:54:48,640 once again our guest has been trisha 1623 00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:50,480 robertson it's been a delight having you 1624 00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:51,440 on and 1625 00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:53,280 congratulations and on all this 1626 00:54:55,030 --> 00:54:54,799 important work and research you've done 1627 00:54:57,750 --> 00:54:55,040 and 1628 00:54:59,349 --> 00:54:57,760 obviously the energy you put behind it 1629 00:55:00,950 --> 00:54:59,359 and you're a real people helper i can 1630 00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:00,960 tell that you're out there trying to 1631 00:55:05,670 --> 00:55:03,200 meet people where they are in terms of 1632 00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:05,680 questions that they have about 1633 00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:08,079 people who've passed over so trisha 1634 00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:11,200 thanks again for joining me on skeptico 1635 00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:16,630 thanks again to trisha robertson for 1636 00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,480 joining me today on skeptico 1637 00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:20,720 i realize i gave trisha quite a hard 1638 00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:22,559 time but then 1639 00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:24,400 you know one of the things i hear from 1640 00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:26,319 skeptical listeners at least the ones 1641 00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:27,680 that i listen to 1642 00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:31,920 is you gotta be an equal opportunity 1643 00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,280 i don't know i hate to use the term 1644 00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:35,359 skeptic but uh skeptic 1645 00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:37,520 we got to get to the level three 1646 00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:38,400 questions 1647 00:55:41,510 --> 00:55:40,160 that's where i'm always going to be 1648 00:55:44,789 --> 00:55:41,520 driving 1649 00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,799 and if it's uncomfortable for 1650 00:55:49,510 --> 00:55:46,640 the person i'm interviewing or if it's 1651 00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:49,520 uncomfortable for you 1652 00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:51,680 i'm not going to really apologize about 1653 00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:52,960 that that's just 1654 00:55:59,510 --> 00:55:56,480 part of the skeptico drill so 1655 00:56:01,990 --> 00:55:59,520 i hey you're still here so 1656 00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:02,000 that's that's all that matters so the 1657 00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:03,040 one question i t 1658 00:56:06,870 --> 00:56:05,440 up from this interview is the question 1659 00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:06,880 that i was really 1660 00:56:12,789 --> 00:56:10,160 pushing tricia on and that's that 1661 00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:12,799 how should we handle someone's religious 1662 00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:13,920 beliefs 1663 00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:15,839 when it comes to after death 1664 00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:16,960 communication 1665 00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:18,960 how much respect should we give them on 1666 00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:20,720 one hand and how much 1667 00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:23,200 veracity should we give them if you know 1668 00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:26,000 what i mean in terms of how evidential 1669 00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:27,760 is that does it immediately blow 1670 00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:29,680 somebody out of the water if they say i 1671 00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:32,160 had an experience with jesus does it 1672 00:56:35,430 --> 00:56:33,839 cause us to say oh well then that 1673 00:56:38,390 --> 00:56:35,440 couldn't have been legitimate or 1674 00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:38,400 that's ultimately legitimate so you get 1675 00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:39,200 the idea 1676 00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:41,040 let me know your thoughts on that i love 1677 00:56:44,069 --> 00:56:42,480 when people interact 1678 00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:44,079 any way you choose to do that the 1679 00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,640 skeptical form is my preferred way 1680 00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:48,480 but any way you want to connect with me 1681 00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:50,480 is great i do have some great shows 1682 00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:51,359 coming up 1683 00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:53,760 i hope you stick with me for all of that 1684 00:56:58,590 --> 00:56:55,680 until next time take care